Live at Remix Conf

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yo yo welcome to JavaScript Jam coming at you live from Remix Conf. We already got one of our speakers hopping in here. Gonna add them and we'll have some other people who will be hopping up soon as well. Should have mad dash around the conference to get as many people as I could to join. So bro, nifty showing up.

What's up, dude? Okay. And yeah, so we are at Remix Conf right now. For those who don't know, Remix, it is a JavaScript framework and it is a conference about that said JavaScript framework. Hopefully we can get our guest up here. Feel free to shoot me a DM if you are hitting any roadblocks as you do that.

Oh, it looks like we got Ishan too. We'll add him as well. Okay. So thank you all for joining. We're gonna be chatting about a couple different things. All right. Looks like we got Glauber up here. Can you speak? Hello? Hello. Live from Remix Conf yeah, real quick. How do you pronounce your name? It's a great question because I don't think I ever had the experience of you pronouncing my name correctly because it's a German word.

Although I have no German ancestry. I was not born in Germany. I have not, nowhere Germany, my family. So I guess it's Glauber. Hey that's what I said. Awesome. Yeah. Yeah. In the uk. In the UK they call me . Glauber that's good too. Yeah. Was that  Yo yeah. The fun part about Twitter spaces is it's like gamification built in.

I missed the first prompt when you invited me, and if you missed that, you have to like, reapply. So it's like I was adjusting my headset. They always keep you on your toes, co-host, actually, let's see if that works. Let's try it. Glauber you wanna introduce yourself to the audience and give a little bit of your background and who you are happy to.

I'm Glauber and I am the founder and c e o of Turso. I don't come pretty much from like a JavaScript frontend background. I was for 10 years contributor to the Linux Kernel. And after that I was in a writing a database in a company called ScyllaDB, which is a no sql petabyte scale database.

And now Turso is essentially an offering of SQLite on the edge in 30 plus locations. And this is obviously a lot more relevant for that community. So I'm here trying to make friends if you haven't met us yet, just come to a booth and tell me more about the front end world and what you would like to see.

Yeah, that is such an incredible background. And as you were saying that, I'm like, Hey, I listened to a podcast with you. You're on JAMstack radio. I was, yes. Some of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Just real quick, don't need to like rehash the whole thing, but what was it like working on the Linux Kernel?

I'm like, someone who just has gotten into web dev in the last couple years and to me, like someone who like has worked on the Linux kernel, it's like this, like holy position is like how do you even go above that is just seems like the coolest thing ever. It's hard to do other things after that, in a sense, because like a people, developers, I noticed we are all sometimes divide ourselves like, oh, I'm a backend developer.

I am a frontend developer. But you're like, if you're a kernel developer or if you're a database developer, like I became later, you're actually none of those. I've  never had the experience like of writing actual backend. So I guess I'm not a front end developer, so maybe backend but it, your experience is very different than the traditional developers.

So sometimes it's hard to connect a little bit, but on the other hand, it's such a great community, a little bit toxic. So all this stuff you keep hearing about Linux however everybody's shouting at each other all the time. All true. And it was also much worse when I was there. I guess it's better today.

But it, it was essentially my first programming thing that I've done. I started contributing as a volunteer out of college. And then I was hired by Red Hat through my contributions. So for me, like being, starting my career in that world was crazy in many ways. And Set me up for success later.

Just step Cause after that, like you're the Linux guy. Just very cool. And something else I'm curious about in terms of the background, this is something that maybe a lot of people won't know, but I do, cause I'm so deep into this world, is that there was ChiselStrike and now there's Turso.

That's right. Yeah. What's the deal there? So ChiselStrike still the official name of our company and it's our previous product that we had. And the idea of ChiselStrike just in, in a couple words, wants to offer a database that was also SQLite based, then also going to the Edge, but become embedded with TypeScript runtime.

And the idea there is that hey, JavaScript developers and this came from like conversations that we had early on. It would be cool if they didn't have to write SQL and you could program your database. In type script. And what we saw there is that some people actually found that cool but never to the extent that we were confident that this will become like a world changing product.

And every time we would explain anybody about what we were doing, they would say, this is cool and all, but tell me more about the SQLite stuff that you're doing, like with SQLite on the edge and et cetera. And we started noticing that the interest was a lot more there. And then we launched, or so a couple of months ago in public beta, and we saw so much traction, right?

Especially in comparison. They were now we're bringing everything. So like a ChiselStrike is mostly at this point, like a historical thing. And we're putting like all in, in bring your data to the edge which is

very strong validation. Yeah. Just, I'm sorry. Sorry. You cut there for a second. Sorry. I think I, I stepped over. You continue. Yeah. Yeah. So the, here at the remix conf, we are getting like lots of people just coming and asking us about it. We have a booth in here. So it's it's essentially like a.

Tldr ChiselStrike is a former product of ours that we keep as an open source project. Some users started using it but we are going all in now in this offer for SQL out on the edge named Turso. Yeah. Very cool. And you're Sorry, go ahead. Yeah I have a Chisel strike t-shirt. Amazing man.

Sorry. I have plenty. Yeah. I'll save that as a memento. But congrats on Turso. Thanks, man. It's a really important part. I remember, I think we, we met in person at the Jamstack conference. We did. We did, yes. So yeah, congrats on the pivot to Turso. So are you, what were you gonna say?

Anthony, go ahead. Yeah, I was just, go ahead. Go ahead, Glauber. No, I was just asking you, Ishan, if it's here. Cause I haven't seen him yet. He's not. Okay. Yeah, I'm not. Scott and Anthony are there. I'm there in spirit. Awesome. This is Ishan. I'm gonna vicariously live through this. Awesome. At all the developer conferences I want to go to.

I was at Remix last year and I just have to say the energy of Remix Conference last year was just infectious, and especially coming out of the Covid Pandemic, it was, I came back to the company and I was like, guys, in-person developer conferences are back. There was so much energy and interest.

I'm curious, are you guys feeling what's the energy like right now on the conference floor? Again, I wasn't here last year, so I don't know in comparison, but compared to other conferences, for example, I think it's fantastic

Jamstack Stack Conference, for example, but smaller doesn't mean necessarily that there's a worth or worse thing on the country. Have so many more interactions with people. So everybody's so far, like extremely friendly. Again, lot, lots of chat going on, like lots of energy. So definitely compared to the baseline of what conferences usually are way above the average for me.

Great. Thank you. It reminds me one of my favorite conferences is it's not very well known, it's called Monktoberfest, run by the guys at Red Monk. And it's not a very large conference and you can judge a conference by its talks or you can judge it by the hallway track, like the conversations you have in the hallway and the people you meet.

And that's one of the reasons I fondly remember Remix if it's something you can't get from looking at the website. And the talks. Absolutely. Yeah. The best conferences I've been to in terms of my career,

like 70 people something like that, like a small, but the group that's there is very relevant. Very skilled, knows what they're doing. And then you can have those meaningful connections. They can last a lifetime

Yeah. Actually, I remember, I think both at JAMstack and Remix conference, there were some people I met and we started talking and we said hello and we'd forgotten. We had only met online before. In fact, last year I met one of, one of our, my, my coworkers for the first time. Yeah. You met me for the first time also.

I met you. I met Scott. Like it was just it was great. Anthony, what are you seeing on the floor at Remix conference? Yeah, to me it feels like a similar energy, which is like a good thing. Cause I thought the energy last year was awesome and I agree that smaller conferences I actually enjoy a lot more.

Cause, you'll see the same people, multiple times and you can meet more people that way. And it feels less it's just like you're gonna Disneyland and it's just a million people and you don't even know what to do with yourself. And it reminds me like I was always really big into summer camps.

I went to summer camp every year for 15 years. So I like that kind of feel where it's like a tight-knit group and everyone can get to know everyone. Yeah I love it. I think it's really cool. So if you're going, if you're going to a conference with more than a thousand people, you're going for the talks.

And if you're going for talks, it's essentially glorify YouTube. It's really hard to make those connections, those personal connections, past a certain point. And again, I've been to conferences with 4,000 people and I've been to conferences with 70 people and I would pick the, to attend in person.

And it's tricky because as a sponsor that I am right now obviously I want 4,000 people to see my message. But as a participant on the conference just being on a, on the site group is just so much better.

Awesome. So we had Jamie joined with us. You wanna go ahead and air yourself to the crowd? Jean? Hey everyone. Yeah, thanks for helping me. So I'm Jamie Dev, working dev at Graph Base. I've been around the GraphQL space for a while and what's really nice actually about Remix comp is you get to just speak with a lot of different people in different ecosystems.

It's very easy, I think, on Twitter to fall into. One particular ecosystem that you advocate for, but when you come to these conferences and speak to others, you can go outside of that and, get familiar and learn other cool new things that in different ways people are working with stuff.

So it's really nice. As we, it was just being discussed, these smaller conferences really do make time for those more meaningful discussions. So I really love it. These smaller ones and the that was similar, a little bit bigger, lots of great discussions going on.

Very cool. Yeah. And so  gave a little bit of an intro about his company. So do you wanna speak a bit about Graph Base as well? Of course. Yeah. So Graph Base we've been around for a few years now. Started off as a project from the CEO that wanted to build a database that had this graph QL API at the edge.

And we've somewhat changed a little bit now we now work with other databases. What's the point of in introducing yet another database for people to learn. So now we kind of work with other databases that are serverless. So things like the MongoDB data api, Postgres. With things like neon and sun teso, I think we're working on something there.

And yeah, we just allow you to bring in all these different data sources. And I think the best analogy from speaking to people today is if people remember, Gaby and the data layer that, that had, that was a really awesome piece of gaspy where you could plug in different data sources from anywhere and you could link those together.

We are providing something similar to that, but it's agnostic to the framework and it's, hosted later this year that will be, Open source, so you can deploy it wherever you like. But we provide a platform for you to do that. And I could go on and on about the different features on top of that api, but I won't.

But that's a quick summary, is that you can bring all real time caching and your own kind of custom resolvers that live alongside these edge functions. So lots of really cool stuff happening. Certainly in the graph QL space it's still vibrant, it's still going on. There's still a lot of hype.

You just look look for it now. But that's that's the tech world, right? Yeah. Yeah. No I love it. And like for me, people who know my history very well will know that I worked at a company that built essentially exactly what you're building right now, steps in.

So it's like the problem space has very near and dear to my heart. And I would love to get you on another time to do like a full, in-depth interview about it. But right now I'm curious, like what's been your remix comp experience like so far? And this is, you were not at last year's Remix Conf, I believe this is your first time.

It's my first time, yeah. Last year I got the Remix bug. Shortly after the conference I watched a few videos by Ryan that was talking about web forms and actions and loaders, and it just clicked. And I'm someone that worked with Ruby on Rails for about five or six years. And then when GraphQL came out, I made the switch to Node.

And I was re-implementing a lot of that stuff with Node and GraphQL and dealing with a lot of the clients and cashing and stuff. And I think it's just nice. Certainly it's been nice to talk to people here about how they're using remix and also self free asking are they using GraphQL?

And if they're not, why. And I think there's a big misconception I that GraphQL is is this weird thing that I just don't need because I have an SDK or REST api, but I try and just make people forget about GraphQL being GraphQL and just treat it as a, another data source. And I think it's perfect with Remix and with Fetch.

Now the Fetch API is so good that I don't think there's a huge need for these graphql clients anymore. Certainly in my discussion so far. Ooh, that's a bold claim. That's how a lot of people I just find with Remix and other tools in this space that are doing a lot more the surrendering and they have built in fetch and caching and re-validation.

I don't really see a huge need for a GraphQL client anymore. But obviously in this ecosystem it's still very valuable for those that aren't in this. So those are still needed of course, but in this space, I don't particularly see a huge benefit to adding that complexity to your application.

Wait, so can we double click on that for a second? So what are the alternative like. Just use what Remix has out of the box with fetch. Is there a minimal stack you'd recommend or like library? I just log post requests with their, with your query over the wire, right? Yeah. Essentially. Yeah. I, and I don't say anything wrong with that like that.

Is that, that I think one of the biggest things with GraphQL. Is the type stuff. So creating types for your queries and mutations and where do those belong? Do they belong inside of the file? Do they belong in a document folder? How are queries then generate it? Should they generate or generate these functions that you run?

One of the things that we are doing with graph based is we are going to introduce a client and a TypeScript config soon. So it'll be full type safety from the schema and the API that you build and the consumption side. But to be honest, I think it's gonna be based on the fetch api.

So it'll just work. I'm hoping we can build it as an adapter approach where you can plug in or make it easily pluggable with Remix and Knox and everything else. So it just hooks into their existing fetch implementations. We already seen, I think last week from another framework, they have extended yet again, the Fetch API with some kind of custom config.

These frameworks are doing so much now to revalidate and keep things Up to date and persistent across their own cas. I think it just makes sense to take advantage of that and not build yet another implementation of that. That's wrapping wrapping that. So I dunno if that kind of double clicks into that, but I, it's a huge discussion.

Maybe, we'll save that for another day.

Looks like we have bro nifty coming up to the stage. Oh, hi. Yeah, I was gonna ask Jamie a quick question. Thank you. Hi Jamie. Yeah, just a quick question about the fetch implementation. Would you do something just like you want to type what's coming back from the GraphQL api maybe just create an interface and saying, yeah, I'm gonna get like a name, a title, and a post or whatever, and you could type out whatever's coming back from it.

And then just from the fetch, wouldn't you want to pull in like the Ivan, it's been a little while. Sorry, but is it gql or something like that? Like before you put in the, those grave quotes or like the template string, you say what kind of if it's if a sanity, it's like G R O Q, you preface it before you put it in the Or if it's GraphQL, you be like, I think it's called like whatever. Just fetch it with a template string. Yeah. Yeah. So you could just use a plain template string. You can instruct whatever code editor. The the language of what is the template strength is. So that kind of gives you the added benefit of if you're, you have a VS code plugin that can high do the syntax highlighting.

I think, I'm not sure if this is still true, but some of the plugins let you execute those one off so you can test it right in there. But yeah, the, there, there's a lot of discussion about kind of relay. Relay is really difficult to set up, I think for most people that are new to GraphQL.

And it takes a few goes to get it going, but I think we're gonna see a huge, I think with GraphQL and Remix and the frameworks that are doing this SSR stuff, how they're own cache. I think fetch just makes sense to me. Like I said before, using these APIs. That they have to fetch data.

I, I would just want to use the framework and leverage the frameworks built in tools and bring along my bloat from other projects. And it might just be a time where we need to relearn and retool a new way. But like I say, this is specific to the remix ecosystem. There's still tools out there, like the Graph qr, code generator.

They used to pr, they used to PR prefer you to use client pl plugins that would generate hooks that you could invoke in your front end. But now that's not recommended. The recommended path is similar to Relay, where you have inline fragments for your components and then at a root level you compose those fragments and it takes care of that.

That data and then that's fully typed for the page and the component and whatever. That's certainly still possible with Remix, but the kind of the transport would just be using fetch. And the htp just wanna give a shout out here, if I may. When we launched through, so in private beta, bro, NIFTI was one of the first people to join our community, so super glad here, man. Yeah. Super cool. Yeah, bro. Nifty is the homie. Yeah. Prime. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's the first time that I'm actually chatting with you in, not in person, but at least over, not text.

So glad to see you, man. Hi G. Yeah. I don't know how to pronounce your name, so I just call you G but Glauber. Glauber, yeah. What's up? Yeah. So let's talk Call, call me Turso man. Call me Turso. Yeah. Are you around? Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. I'm not on the re unfortunately. Yeah, I'm unfortunately, I'm like broke and so not traveling to the various conferences and stuff, but I'll get there.

I'll get there one day. So need, so yeah, so just say, let's tie this all together. Could we plug Turso into graph base? Yeah, totally possible. Yeah, we Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. We've been briefly discussing this, I think there's a few things we need to tie you up, but I think we have resolvers right now, so that's the easiest way to do it, is you can just use a custom resolver with graph base create some type definitions that link to the custom resolver.

And that when you execute that query mutation that can then talk to Turso. Yeah. Seem, it seems doable. What I would prefer that we've been speaking to global and the rest of the team about is making this a kind of a first class directive. It's like at Turso and then we just, generate all of that boilerplate for you.

So yeah I'm super excited about that. Yeah, I like, like those guys a lot by the way. And now we do have a Slack, slack channel that we've been discussing those kind of things. So I think it is coming. And one of the things about Turso that obviously I find it very nice, although I am obviously of course biased is that we're fully API based, right?

So you can create databases, destroy databases, list databases, do all of your database work from an api, and you have, you still have the local experience of having SQL Light for your local sdk. So it integrates central platforms very well. And like the graph based story for us is a very compelling story.

Definitely want to make that a first class citizen. And yeah, you're at the conference, right? I will stop by. I am, yes. Yeah. I'll stop by. Got some candy. We actually, we have a bowl of candy and I'm here with our VP of marketing. Michael and I have a bat with him that we will not be able to give away all the candy that we have.

So if you want him to win, and if you want me to lose, come and get the candy. All right. We've got lots of t-shirts, so maybe as we can trade. That's right.

That's super funny. So I'd be curious has anyone seen a talk so far that they're really excited about or have a talk coming up that they're looking forward to?

I've seen half of the CloudFlare talk and like  when you have a booth, it's really hard to watch a full talk cuz you always wanna be around and you wanna be talking, like talking to people that are coming to your booth. But it managed to get like a at least half I think of the CloudFlare talk.

That one was super exciting. Obviously very relevant for us and naturally calls for my attention. CloudFlare is doing amazing work at the edge stuff. I like them a lot as a platform, so definitely was excited for that one.

Yeah, there was a talk from Alex on the remix live loader and I think this is not something new, but it's certainly an area which I spent a lot of time on last year with graph based when we were discussing how can we implement graph fuel live queries, which isn't a very popular thing. But I think it's much better than subscriptions to some degree and.

Yeah, it was just nice to see how that was implemented in a framework like remix, because I was considering building a client library that communicated with graph base. And it actually seems very easy from what I seen in the slides in the talk. So that's not as daunting as I first imagined.

So I'm super excited that's gonna be the thing that I look at when I get home. Just a shout out to Alex. He was our guest last week on JavaScript Jam live. And you can find that on our website actually And while you're there, by the way, you can subscribe to our newsletter but Alex, and we interviewed Kent, actually the week before that for the last two weeks in preparation in the run up to the Remix conference.

Were guests in the past if you want to hear, and Alex did go into some detail on, on, preview of his remix, live Loader talk. Any other talks people saw or looking forward to? I know, I see like Dan Abramov, Mr. React is gonna be talking. I don't think that's happened yet. I'm trying to calculate the time zones in my head.

I think that one's coming up. And that looks really interesting and I know later today there's a React, panel from the React core team, which is great to see the presence of the React core team at remix conference this year.

Yeah, totally. There's one talk on using Remix in the browser for video editing. I create a lot of videos and I'm keen to see what that looks like and just how it's possible. So that's one I'm looking forward to seeing today. Oh yeah, I. So I came in a past life I did, engineering for a computer, music, computer video company.

It was like avid slash Pro Tools. So I'm really curious to see what we can do in the browser these days and see how much can be inserted there. And, back in the day we had to use, custom hardware, let alone native applications. It's really amazing how far we've come. So I was looking forward to that one, but I felt like that's just me.

So it's great to hear that others who are interested, yeah. As Christopher Sau, who's early, early React core team member, I think.

And then I'm looking at tomorrow's, schedule. And I saw some interesting talks there too. I like convince your Boss to use Remix, I find like how do you convince people to use any stack to be like itself? A very interesting topic. Yeah, we should get 'em on. I think that's a great topic.

And I'm really curious to watch that talk. I saw that as well. Because, we I run product at Edgio this whole thing on, convince your boss is actually very topical and important part of, any type of product. So I'm always really curious to see what people do in this regard.

And it's really important when you're, not the default so to speak. And remix has certainly made huge gains more so than a lot of other, I think, frameworks. But even then, I think it's, sometimes people, if you're outside our ecosystem, you may not know Remix. And your boss may not know Remix, and you might need to convince at least your boss or your boss's boss.

So that'll be a really interesting talk. We have two, I think tomorrow on web performance. Which is near and dear to my heart. So I'm always curious to watch those and see what people are talking about. One about, data, I guess on the state of web performance and one on the difference between rum and lab tests, which that last topic I think is really important.

I will say yeah, I know you're a big rum guy. You're the first person told me about rum. Yeah, I'm like, so look, here's the thing. Everyone runs page speed insights and they're like or lighthouse and they're like, shooting for a hundred and it may not matter. Like my number one tip for optimizing your lighthouse score is don't look at the lighthouse score.

Look first at your RUM data and your core web vitals which is another part now of page speed insights. They used to have this problem with the user experience, like they'd intersperse the RUM data with the lab data and you couldn't focus on what was important and then put the. The synthetic lab data at the top.

And the problem with that is like when Google ranks how fast your site is, they don't run Lighthouse. They only look at the RUM data. So that's the number one thing you should look at. And then look at the lab data to help you inform how to improve your RUM data. There was a really good example during the pandemic where every state here in the US had its own webpage for the vaccine rollout, and somebody went and ran a test of Lighthouse across all 50 states and they're like, here are the states with the best and worst vaccine pages.

And then I looked at it and I found, if you look at the core web vitals data, it was a totally different picture. In fact, there was like one site that had an 80, another site that had a 20, but the core of vitals was almost identical for them. And the only thing that really matters is the core of vitals.

So it was a great test case of like where, rum data really matters. So I look forward to that talk and the more we can get that message out there. I think the better the web will be as a whole. So that's a great one. The other one I saw that was really interesting, which is off the moment, is the get rich quick one which is AI powered remix apps.

I'm curious to tune to that just cuz that's one of the hot topics in the industry. I dunno if there's anybody else who's a speaker who, who saw other talks they want to hear about. And I'll just remind folks, JavaScript jam is, since we're at the halfway, or somewhat halfway mark, an open mic for everything, JavaScript and web development related.

This week and the last two weeks, we've been focused on remix conference where we're a media sponsor. And Anthony's there live streaming from the event. But, feel free to raise your hand, ask you a question to the speakers or bring up another topic. If, especially if early streaming conference, even if you're attending virtually, this is your chance to ask people how things are going on there and get a little bit of the hallway track.

And while you're at it, as I said earlier, go to JavaScript and subscribe to our newsletter. So you know what? So just put on Jumbotron. Yes, thank you. Hey, it looks like we got Jen coming up too. She was just texting me on the side, both Glauber and Jamie, both of you would be great g for her stream.

The currently work side of database company and is always looking for more database or backend type people to bring on. So what's up Jen? Hello. Hello. Beautiful humans and thank you for the intro. Anthony. I was coming up to say yes, just that of y'all should be a guest on my show of I am newer to the database world and still pretty new in, in coding as well.

I started, Anthony, you were my second guest, July 5th. Did we decide with the best episode ever? Apparently it is it has the most views counts, double the one that's in second. Yeah. I still need to do better SEO and stuff like that. And anyway just thought I'd come say hi. I was driving earlier, so I couldn't say Yay bro nifty because bro, nifty is the best. And yeah, that's really all I came up here to say and ask.

Very cool. Very cool. Thank you for joining us and yeah. What's your been, what's your experience been so far with conferences? Jen, you've done I think some virtual conferences. Have you done any live ones yet? I've MCed four virtual conferences. I've spoken at one virtual conference and I've attended one in-person conference.

Two, like an internal conference for Ivan and also Denver Startup Week, and both of which I was like a last minute. Hey Jen, go talk on this. Okay, so like last minute speakers for the two in-person ones I've been to. I that clutch devrel right there. Luckily they've all been about mental health, so we're good.

We're good. Last minute. Speaker. I, yeah, I'd recommend building like an example app that you can demo anywhere, anytime, and just be like, anyone ever ask you to do a thing, be like, cool. Okay dude, this demo that I've done this thousand times, that was always my move as a yes.

That is definitely something I need to do and I am gonna be working on recording videos today. I actually purposely didn't apply for conferences this season for the fall because we're like CFPs or a lot of 'em are closing up right now because I'm focusing elsewhere, yet excited to get to conferences.

I agree with what y'all were saying earlier. I really like, I. Smaller conferences where you get to know people really well. I think those connections can be made at larger conferences. Like I've been to larger conferences, yet not in the tech world. And they're very similar. Like you can make connections, but it is much harder and you have to purposely try to make those relationships.

Where at smaller conferences it's much more like water cooler talk, so it's much more organic. And I would say as for MCing conferences and for those who ever have thought about being a guest or have questions or things like that, first off, if you have questions when you're doing q and a. The mc will try to get to all your questions, but it's like honestly not possible 90% of the time.

And also, if you see there are no questions being asked, please just ask the most random question. It doesn't matter if it's what's their favorite color. Please volunteer yourself to ask a question to that guest if there's no, no one asking questions. And also being an mc, you get to see how dope these speakers are where you don't always get to see like how they are behind the scenes when you're in the audience.

And with the view knocked a p i days, so many conferences I've seen that the people are incredibly kind even behind the scenes.

That's great to hear. I feel like developer conferences haven't always been the most welcoming and I think a large part of the community has really taken that as feedback in over the time I've attended them. And I think they've really tried to break down the walls to make them more welcoming and get more people into the ecosystem.

So I think that's a really good point. I do have a question that was brought up. I saw it earlier today on Twitter and I will pin it, of somebody was asking about should we pause pushing tech until the layoffs slowed down because they've noticed that how they talk about tech and if we should continue to push people into tech anymore.

And I thought that was such a curious question, especially with conferences because. It is so much more welcoming. Yet with all the layoffs and scariness, how do we continue to promote the community that we're building?

That's an interesting question. And by pause pushing , what exactly would that mean? From the way I took it of I may not suggest to other people that may be bartending right now to start learning to code because they're not able to get a job as quickly because of all the layoffs. That's at least how I took it, of it doesn't make as, would it make as much sense if it's harder to get a job to suggest people learn to code, get into tech.

Got it. Okay. That makes sense. I lost connection. Didn't hear the last two or three minutes of stuff. Looks like the space survived though, thankfully. Continue on. You missed Jen raised a really good question which was, she saw somebody on Twitter saying, should we pause pushing tech?

And absolutely not. I hate this take. Yeah. I'm, I was like, I really wanna hear what say with all the lays. Yeah. Go. So I have some thoughts, but I really want to hear from you. Anthony, I'm really curious to get what your first reaction is. Yeah. Layoffs is it's a temporary thing. It's the whole economy went to crap and a whole bunch of companies lost a ton of money.

This has nothing to do with the viability of tech skills for a career and to try. We've been there before, right? Yeah. We've, we've been there before. I'm yeah,  2001. It's when I was joining the tech industry. And 2001 was in many ways much worse than what we're seeing now. So just in like if people had said in 2008, don't go into finance, it's I think finance is still a viable career and people who are in finance probably make plenty of money, but 2008 would've looked very bad actually.

Notice of people who like graduate around that time with finance degrees. And it was really tough for them to get a job. And it's true, it will be tough to get a tech job right now, and that's something to make sure people are aware of. But we shouldn't say, don't bother get, become like a carrot farmer or something.

I don't know what are you talking to do instead? Yeah I think you should, I would just say, you should go into something that you both like and that's economically viable are statistically economically viable. And don't think like tech is no longer economically viable, but if you like finance, but I think you really put it well, like both just like finance.

Just like tech. They're both good careers. But if the only reason you're getting into it, like you don't like it, but you think it's the only way to make money, then I think you're just not gonna enjoy it. And consideration, yes. Whether you should get into tech or not, to be a question of do you want to do this every day for the rest of your life?

Yes. Is this something you actually enjoy or how you've been told it'll make you, and this is, I saw this in boot camps, where especially with Lambo, where it was an ISA and you can join without having to pay. People would be like, Ooh, I could join this bootcamp and learn to code and then make a bunch of money.

I like computers. Brian Douglas has said this too, when people say, I like computers. That's the reason why they want to get into it. He's that's a huge red flag. It's This isn't computers, this is coding. It's a different thing. Yeah. I will say this though. And even if you don't like coding it might be useful to augment whatever you end up doing with some coding background.

I think it'll help you afford, but maybe your career isn't coding, but you should still get tech skills because they're a good compliment. Yeah. And I told this to my partner who's a copywriter, I'm like, learn, I like, I really wanna teach her how to create a basic HTML site and show her like, what is a head tag and what is metadata?

Let me teach her, let me teach her, we'll make her far more effective. Oh, we're both a teacher, but if you, maybe I can get her into it. She'll, you teach her first N Tech. That would be really cool. I love Jen. She's amazing. His fiance's name is Jen as well, in case anybody was curious and she's phenomenal.

And the,

I'm alone and no one can hear me. I just started being able to hear you. Yeah. I think then cut out for a second. You wanna just re-say whatever you were saying

for your face is going real well.

Is there anybody out there? Okay, I'm back. God, if you can hear me? Yeah. That's big. That's big shoes to fill. So I'll, can you hear me? Anthony? Can you hear me now? Yeah, we can hear you just restart whatever we were saying before. Yeah, I was gonna say the, I think, and if folks wanna go back, we had a really interesting conversation a few JavaScript jam episodes ago where there was, a question like, I don't think the economics changes whether you should get into tech, but there was, I think a more fundamental question like, does AI change, how does that affect getting into tech or tech job?

Maybe if you were looking at significantly easier, it may make it significantly easier. It may, if your goal was, To, not to code, but to be able to build certain things. Maybe you can build those using tech pt. You don't need as much, coding knowledge as you thought anymore in the future.

Or maybe it changes the dynamics of like how we segment the tech ecosystem between like front end and backend developers. And I think that's a really fascinating topic. But we explored that in a previous episode. I don't remember which one it was, but you can go back and find it on our archives.

I, I'd be curious, Glauber, as someone who's been in the industry for so long, when you talk to people or if someone were to say, I'm understanding in getting into tech and and they are interested and you wanna give 'em advice about how to do it is what would you say to someone who would ask you that?

I think the advice is the same. It's always been, you have to make yourself visible. The way I became visible, in particular in my career was to open source. Open source doesn't immediately guarantee you that you have to be contributing to a project that has some visibility. Just you don't assume that all projects are equally visible, but you have to keep in mind that when we're talking about downturns, it's like people are being laid off.

20% of people. It's a lot of people, but that's still like a lot of people that are not. Laid off, right? So t is still around. So if you manage to be in that 88% there you don't have to be top 1%, that's the thing. You have to be top 80% and you can hear that the folks are back here at the hallway, right?

So so you just, you have to make yourself visible. You have to be make sure that you can communicate the skill set that you have in one way or another. Mean, open source is not by, by and large, the only route. And as long as you're in this top person title, that is not like top 1%, it's really like top 50, top 80%, you'll be all right.

So just focus on developing your skill and making sure that your skills are, you can communicate them well and you can show off them well. Participating in conferences is another way. Speaking conferences, doing interesting stuff, posting around. So just just, it's how it's always been, to bring it back to the conference, we talked with Ken about this idea.

I don't know if they had a chance to implement it, but conferences in general, like remix conference are a great way to network. And potentially, meet future employers If you're looking to get into tech there is the, it's not the easiest cuz there's a time and the logistics and sometimes a cost burden to attend them.

But it is another potential avenue, especially if it's like in your area. Geographically it's not a bad way to go and get immersed in the ecosystem.

Yeah. And you can get like a I don't know I've been to a lot of conferences that there's this hack to how to go to a conference without pay. Which is your speaker at the conference. So all, and it's also great because you get a lot of visibility. So it goes back to do something interesting enough.

And sometimes you think the bar like, oh, I'm not good enough and et cetera. But the thing is that it, you can always have an angle. You can always have a, something that you're doing that is interesting. Again when I started my career in 2001 I was not obviously as skilled as I am today. And yet I was trying in local conferences and in smaller places, like to get to the conference as a speaker, first of all.

Cause I was broke. I didn't have money to pay. And second of all, because it gives you visibility, so it's a win-win. So try to get to conferences as a speaker. It's a great way to do it.

Yeah. And another thing we were talking about how conferences are now more welcoming. I get the impression from a lot of organizers, they are looking for, people who are new speakers is something they look for. And they try to make that easier. So it's a great call out.

That's, yeah. And this, especially in contracts, in contrast with the Linux community, that was always like very hostile in a lot of senses, but the tech community in general in the past 10 years have been thinking a lot about like how to gate keep things less, how to give more opportunity to people of all backgrounds and yada.

So the fact that you are like a new speaker that never spoke before, as long as you can come up with a compelling case about the stuff that I'm gonna talk about is interesting to the audience. You have a good shot. Might as well try. Yeah. And very often they are looking for a mix of content too, so they're not looking for expert content where you gotta, blow the minds of The most sophisticated Linux Kernel Hacker, they're also looking for it.

It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be sophisticated, but it also like also for a conference and just put yourself in the position of the person who is like looking for those stocks which is an advocate of the users. Put yourself in, in, in the shoes of somebody that is gonna be watching that talk.

It can't be something like totally obvious, right? So it's not about beginner or advance, like I can give you an incredibly advanced talk that is so boring that nobody's gonna want to see. So you want to be able to spin this in a way that makes it interesting for the artist. And you can do that at every level, right?

But I think it will be a hard thing to do, like just show up with something incredibly basic and like a tutorial on something incredibly basic. Probably not, but it can show for example, how you use that in an interesting way. Way more interesting. And again, same thing for a more advanced content.

If I'm just showing up and presenting like the internals of this AI algorithm that developed hypothetically, I do not but way less interesting for this audience. For example, if I submit a talk about how we do the nitty gritty of the inner details of how we do replication insiders, so some conferences will take it, probably not remix.

But if I'm talking about how can you use that to create better experiences with your front end application, much better chances to be accepted. It's all about the framing. It's not too much about the level, so it's fine. The framing, it's a bit of talk. Jen, you got your hand up. This is something that I was actually talking to Anthony about with.

Being only a year and not even a year, almost a year. We're 10 months in into starting my show, Teach Jen Tech. I had no idea what I wanted to go into was just trying everything and somehow, and I feel very nerdy for this, but databases seem fascinating to me and I love them and I love learning about them.

And I'm curious, how did y'all find what you're passionate about to do? Talks about them?

Ooh, yeah. This is a really one for me it was Redwood as Leo, some people should probably know who know me at all know that like I'm so gungho on Redwood. And I, the thing that got me into it was I was a bootcamp, I was learning. Learning, quote unquote full stack react development. And I went through this like four month long curriculum that taught me, from front to back, how to use React, use C ducts, how to use Express, how to use Postgres, and then you tie it all together.

And then I was like, wow, this is complicated and doesn't work very well. And the pplicant from all these no understands. And then I discovered Redwood and it's hey, you get all that from flight command and you have an app set up with literally all of that. That was the thing that got me fired and it was just circumstantial.

I happened to be in a place where I needed a tool like Redwood. I found Redwood and I got it. Like I got the problem it was solving cause I in that problem per month then. And yeah, so it's always hard to say how do you find your passion? Cause a lot of times there's not like a.

Cookie cutter kind of solution to that. But I'd be really curious, eon, Ander, what you guys think about that, how you found your passion.

I'll let Glover go or first and then I can go I think passion finds you, and that's really the answer. Now the question is wants to find your passion is that passion possible? But most of the time it finds you and experience, remember like in 2001,

open source,

trusted open source, the game was like just Microsoft, Oracle. They were the only games in town. I got passionate about, a, and on top of that the industry was focusing a lot more on like web stuff and like user facing stuff. And I got I found this passion on the Linux kernel. So the advice that I got from anybody was don't go into operating systems cuz there's no money there, there's no career there.

And on top of that, don't go into open startup. Cause that sounds crazy. Now I did it anyway out of passion, but it's not like a you found me. It's not like I, I found it. And the leap of faith is an interesting thing cuz now I have to understand like a, and when you're young you have the luxury of not worrying too much about it because if it fails then you go do something else later.

Like more targeted. But, just the real question is like, when you look at the passion that found you, is this something that I'm gonna be able to keep doing it or not? But it finds you, if you try passion and cannot be manufactured, like it you click and it's almost like falling in love with another person.

Like it's hard to manufacture that.

Yeah, that's a really good answer. I like that it finds you because I don't have a good answer. It's all like for me. How'd you discover performance as a Yeah. Happens so, So if I was to go through the history, it's like coming outta school, I wa I was really interested in music and I studied computer science, so I wanted to do something at the intersection.

We were the reverse. I studied, I was really interested in tech. Yeah. And so I, I'm, a better, I was a better engineer than a musician. So I went to a computer music company and did code and that's how I felt like I was part of the industry. And when I was there, we were trying to do a really difficult problem, which is hard to appreciate today with how fast computers are, but we're trying to do real-time audio editing and video at the parent company and.

That's where performance really matters. And so that's what actually pulled me into it. It was in the service of that passion. And then, I've slowly worked my way up the stack, but performance continued to be a problem. Or a place where I would, I'd find a performance realm.

Eventually from drivers to the application layer to then cloud and mobile. And when I got into mobile, it was again a bit of ham happenstance. One of my friends was like, Hey, I wanna start this mobile project. And it was to launch an app for the iPhone the day it came out before there was an app store.

And I got pulled into that ecosystem. And again, I found, hey, this is web performance and there's, I can use the same set of skills. And so that's what has slow, like every single turn. There was some, there was like one foot in one place and one foot in, where it felt like things were going.

Looks like Jamie, back up here. Did you disconnect from the Hilton wifi like I told you to? Yeah, I had to go downstairs. So hopefully you can hear me now, but I bumped though in in the hallway, which is good.

But yeah, so what we were just talking about was tech. It may be what we would recommend to new people who are trying to get into, before. Before you get the answer from Jamie, I will thank you all and apologize for missing the last couple of minutes. I do want to go cuz there are people who started crowning around the booth getting some attention.

Thank you. Thanks so much for joining. Great. Pleasure being around. Thanks. Joining again, guys.

Yeah. Jamie, how'd you find your passion in tech? Which could be GraphQL, could be something else. Sorry, could you repeat that? Yeah, we're talking about how we found our passion in tech. So like for me, that was Redwood. For Jen, it was databases For EShot, it was performance for you. I would take a wild guess that it might be GraphQL.

Yeah. So my passion, it started way back when I have a hobby. I'm a hobby. I do a lot of kind of card tricks magic tricks. And way back when I was doing that kind of stuff, I wanted to show people this. And I ended up building a website maybe when I was 11 or 12 years old. It's kinda the first kid in school.

And from that moment, I could just see on people's faces the reaction and like the joy that it broke, like being able to share information with others and, even it was just in my time, it was my hobby. That was just a really good time. And from that moment I've just continued to do that.

I moved into Ruby on Rails. I moved into node with GraphQL, and then, In the last few years, specifically with GraphQL, there wasn't really anyone just creating content specifically on that. There was a lot of content creators being paid to sell to create content around different products and platforms, which is great.

But I thought why not spend a few years just building content around GraphQL? And to be honest, it's worked. It's been good. I had have had some amazing discussions with people and some really interesting ideas have came out of that. It's given me some great opportunities in the process.

I, my advice if anyone is keen to do something like that is just stick it out. Like when I started creating content in the early days, no one was really watching it. No one really cared. But the more you were persistent about it and you get over that hump the passion, it just grows and grows because you start to see the rewards of all of that hard work.

Awesome. Awesome. Cool. We're getting close to the top of the hour now. Are there anything people wanna throw out about Remix Cough or anything else we've talked about before we start closing it up? I have one for Remix cough and maybe we can follow up on it later, but I'm curious if there's any on the ground themes or hallway track conversations that seem to be consistently about a certain topic you guys are seeing there that may not be apparent or are apparent from looking at the talks.

I'll give you an example. At JAMstack conference, I felt like one of the, not explicit but implicit themes was about. The diversity of frameworks and the ecosystem as the other alternatives people should know about the other frameworks out there. And I don't know if you feel like there's something like that emerging as a theme.

It could be edge, it could be it could be data at the edge, it could be functions of the Edge, it could be something else. But is there an underlying theme that you keep hearing coming up in, in hallway conversations with folks? I've not been involved enough in the hallway conversations to give an answer to this.

I don't know about Jamie maybe.

Yeah, quite a few. It's getting quite noisy down here and there in the hallway track now, so apologies for that. But yeah, there's a lot of people talking about data and where data lives Edge is more important these days. So just say data in general is still a very popular topic. An edge, anything at the edge we're all interested in and a lot more with re the react and the service side components and all that stuff.

That seems to be quite a popular topic amongst people, I think. Okay, great. Thank you. As a, as an edge computing platform I love hearing that. So thank you. Anthony, do you wanna take us out? Yeah. Thank you so much everyone. This was a super great conversation. If anyone on this stage gave you value, go their face, follow them, because they're gonna give you more value in other places.

And unfortunately we do not have our. Close out music here, but really appreciate everyone who came to join us. We will be doing a actual like live podcast interview with the Turso guys, people tonight at seven 30 at Remix Comp. And yeah, I'm just having a blast here hanging out with everyone at the conference and we hope the next one.

Thank you.